Jeffrey Epstein (Photo: Epstein Estate / House Oversight / Zuma / TASS)
Evgenia Albats*: The whole world is now discussing millions of files from Jeffrey Epstein's personal archive, who was found guilty of 'engaging a child in prostitution and soliciting a prostitute'. This was a 2008 court decision. And he was also charged with 'trafficking minors for sexual exploitation'. These charges were brought in 2019 when he was already arrested. He was in prison and either committed suicide (this is the official version) or was killed (this is speculation), but he was gone before the trial began. Why are journalists and the public so concerned about this story? More than protecting those whose lives Jeffrey Epstein and his accomplices ruined. How exclusive is this story? Or is it just that it became publicly available? How common is this phenomenon in Russia? From where, as some journalists claim, was Epstein supplied with live goods in the form of girls from the Krasnodar modeling agency 'Storm'. Why is prostitution banned in some countries? In the USA, for example, it is banned in 49 states, but allowed in Nevada. And in others, on the contrary, prostitution is allowed and regulated. For example, in Germany, where, as I understand, Olga Romanova is located. Dear Bozhena, dear Olga, the first question: why did the publication of the Epstein files cause such a sensation?
People Love Scandals
Bozhena Rynska: Why did it cause such a sensation? Well, firstly, because people love scandals. This is a loud scandal. Plus, the elite, big money, big positions are involved in it. Serious guys who run us had an illegal secret life. Naturally, everyone is interested in this. Here it is, it turns out, what the life of rich and famous — life of the rich and famous is like. This is such a social crime chronicle. Of course, getting into bed with the rich and famous, and even more so seeing such hell, such a nightmare there, is interesting to everyone.
Now there is news, seemingly not entirely fake, that Epstein ordered barrels of sulfuric acid to the island, apparently to dissolve bodies.
Evgenia Albats: There are some speculations on the internet that they buried the bodies of those girls who were driven to death. All sorts of things appear. Olga, in Germany, prostitution is legalized and strictly regulated. There are even unions of prostitutes, as far as I understand. How is the story with the Epstein files discussed in Germany?
Olga Romanova: Well, for me, not being German, it's quite difficult to judge. On the street where I live, which is one of the central streets of Berlin, a swinger club has been operating for many years, with large windows and a huge sign. This is not prostitution, this is something else. But nevertheless, there are a bunch of clubs of this kind here. Personally, I have acquaintances, men who in the queer environment not exactly provide services, but quite earn a living from it. In Berlin, there is the famous 'Artemis' club, a huge brothel, the advertisement for this brothel is in taxis. Yes, there is a union, but I think this is not what the guys from Epstein's island had in mind. This is something completely different.
You know, a few years ago there was a big discussion in Denmark. They imprisoned one rich guy, not young. He accidentally strangled a peer on a yacht while having sex, and, in fact, during sex, he strangled her to death. And threw her off the yacht to, you know, cover his tracks. He was sentenced, he is serving time, and during this time he appealed to the Danish prison service: I am recognized as a sexual maniac, I need women in prison. I was deprived of freedom, but they didn't deprive me of what my life consists of. For me, losing a woman is like losing food. I need prostitutes. I paid 70% taxes all my life, and I earned this right. They consulted and agreed that he has the right, there is so-called social prostitution, and these women or men visit people who have some restrictions, primarily motor restrictions, these are people with disabilities, as it is now customary to say. He refused social ones, said he wants to choose himself, he needs beautiful women, and then a dispute broke out, for a very long time, who should pay for this, the state or himself. That is, there were no questions, whether it is necessary or not. He said — this is my natural need, let the state pay. No, society said, let him pay himself. In the end, he won, yes, there is such a thing.
It is believed that in Russia only one in ten rapes ends with the rapist being punished. Allegedly, women do not want publicity, women are embarrassed. But in fact, those of them who start this path face the fact that people begin to savor, demanding details
And regarding the interest in events on Epstein's island, from my criminal perspective, I can say: it's like with rapes in Russia. Why do so few cases reach court and prison terms? It is believed that only one in ten rapes ends with the rapist being punished. Allegedly, women do not want <publicity>, women are embarrassed. But in fact, those of them who start this path face the fact that people begin to savor, demanding details that, in general, are not really needed. Cops savor, call colleagues, ask to show, tell in more detail how it was. The investigator asks, in court they ask to tell in detail, and so on.
Evgenia Albats: So it's such verbal pornography. Bozhena, I have a question for you. Olga mentioned that there is a swinger club not far from her. Here, in New York, I live in Lower Manhattan, there are also many of these clubs. But I read even in those vegetarian times, but already Putin's, that such swinger clubs were almost on the Patriarch's Ponds. That there were more than one or two such high-style brothels in Moscow. Despite the fact that prostitution is officially banned in Russia, how characteristic was such sexual openness for Moscow?
Bozhena Rynska: No, in Moscow all this was very closed, because what pleasure is there from a swinger club when there is a sign on it. It's interesting when it's a closed party, when it's by invitation only, when it's all set up like Kubrick, when in masks. When some chic hotel, which doesn't even know what's happening in it. But when the sign says 'Come in, whoever wants' or says 'brothel', well, it's not interesting at all.
Evgenia Albats: How widespread was this in Moscow? Among the Russian elite.
Bozhena Rynska: In Moscow, it was, but it was all secret. That's why it was successful. Prostitution was kind of not prostitution if it was elite and expensive. It was all set up differently. Kuprin wrote in 'The Pit', why are they all so provocative, why do they bring it all to the surface? There should be dim light, ladies in school uniforms, like schoolgirls, who are shy, say, oh no, don't tell anyone...
Blondes for the Rich
Evgenia Albats: At some point at various Moscow parties, already in Putin's times, when all the KGB officers from the city of Peter had already moved to Moscow, at various social gatherings, including journalistic ones, sugar daddies began to appear, elderly people, and with them young girls, usually blondes, legs from the neck... And it became kind of good form. It became a status thing, especially among the KGB officers, to show that they are cool, that young women want them. What can you say about this, Bozhena?
Bozhena Rynska: Well, it was, is, and will be. Rich men want to have beautiful, young model companions.
Evgenia Albats: Why did it become so open in Putin's times?
Bozhena Rynska: Because having a beautiful model was prestigious.
Evgenia Albats: These were not only models. I had a manicurist, a sweet, wonderful girl who was just surviving in that Russian reality. And then she got an oilman. And she completely changed. She came to me, apparently, to tell me how high she had risen.
Bozhena Rynska: That happens too. Lucky.
The 2000s and 2010s, and even the early 2020s until the start of the war — it was a time of our general Moscow promiscuity. When we all laid our guts on the table and flaunted our personal lives
Evgenia Albats: But these were completely open things, you understand? In journalistic circles, it became good form to talk about their passions, including in some organizations we were associated with. What is this? And why was it so popular in the KGB environment?
Bozhena Rynska: Well, in the KGB environment simply because they are rich guys. Rich and immoral. They all have fairly easy money. They spent this easy money on women. It was also our general Moscow promiscuity, I wrote, by the way, on this topic a column in my Telegram channel. The 2000s and 2010s, and even the early 2020s until the start of the war — it was a time of our general Moscow promiscuity. When we all laid our guts on the table and flaunted our personal lives. It would have been better for all of us not to do this. We knew too much about each other's personal lives. We should generally hide such things.
Violence as a Dominant
Evgenia Albats: Olga, you had to deal with both cops and prison officers, and even with the same KGB officers when you tried to get a loved one out of prison. Did you observe such a craving for young women and the publicity of all these relationships?
Olga Romanova: In prison, it's different. In prison, it's not so much a craving for young beautiful ones, but domination. There is a cult of violence, and it is important to dominate. It's good, of course, to dominate over the beautiful, but you can dominate over the weak, you can dominate over the rich, you can dominate over the strong. Domination as such. After all, in principle, prison is not exactly the place for sex, no. There is a notion that everyone is raped in prison. Violence — yes, but it is not necessarily associated with sex. Just try to imagine some distant zone somewhere under Angarsk. There for recidivists there is a layer of so-called lowered, 'cornered', but this is, to put it mildly, unappetizing, not sexual. And here it is also more about domination. Of course, there is what is called in this monstrous terrible language 'fresh meat'. I think that on Epstein's island it was called about the same. There is such, unfortunately, a layer, as minors. When you turn 18, you are transferred from a juvenile colony to an adult colony. This is a very dangerous moment. Dangerous for everyone. And therefore I have the feeling that the cruelty of the juvenile colony, eternal cruelty, is such a training before the adult one. Trying to become savage enough, train to try to resist, or at least somehow die not too humiliatingly.
Prison, of course, is a special slice of society, but I have the feeling that even outside of it, it's more about domination now, not about sex and not about sexuality. Today's story with <the deceased in pre-trial detention> Aliya Galitskaya, this is also a story about domination. 'I can imprison you'. Let me remind you that we are talking about the Galitsky couple, Alexander Galitsky (not to be confused with Sergey Galitsky from the 'Magnit' chain) — this is a large IT business, Alfa-Bank, etc., a joint company with Alisher Usmanov. Galitsky is defended by the Dobrovinsky law firm with all the ensuing consequences.
Evgenia Albats: And there is a case about the division of property, right?
Olga Romanova: There is a case about the division of property and about Galitsky kidnapping two children and taking them to Switzerland. The woman committed suicide. But what is strange here? The investigator initiates a case because she demands the children back, demands alimony, and wants to divide the property. Why did he initiate a criminal case? Why did the judge of the Istra district consider it necessary to imprison her? This is undoubtedly domination, and domination by a resourceful man.
Russian Trace
Evgenia Albats: Epstein files in the Russian context. Judging by what we read in the American press, Epstein used his club, firstly, as a source of financial information. We see this in the case of the British lord and Prince Andrew, who supplied him, as British newspapers now write, with information. Secondly, he used the sex club as a compromise for blackmailing famous and rich people, especially when it came to people in power. And thirdly, he used it as access to powerful people. We know that he had former US President Clinton there, there were people like Bill Gates, like the former president of Harvard University Larry Summers (at least he corresponded with Epstein). To what extent is this whole story with Epstein about instruments of power?
Rich and famous people at some point begin to think that the world is their buffet, their smorgasbord. And they start to satisfy their passions because they can do more than others
Bozhena Rynska: This was his networking. And if he had been networking with people from 18 years old and older, there would have been no questions for him. But he broke the law. The passion for teenagers is generally quite common, and rich and famous people at some point, if they do not monitor themselves and do not work on themselves, begin to think that the world is their buffet, their smorgasbord. And they can. And they start to satisfy their passions because they can do more than others. Their life taught them this, life did not punish them and did not slap their hands when they got carried away in the process of accumulating connections and money.
Evgenia Albats: But this is violence against children.
Bozhena Rynska: This is exactly violence. If a child has not reached the age of consent, it is violence. And from 16 years old, despite the fact that after 16 years the age of consent exists, it is grooming, it is a hundred thousand times a dishonorable occupation. A hundred thousand times a despicable occupation. But after 16, as I understand it, it is not punishable. Before 16, it is punishable and should be punished very seriously.
Evgenia Albats: Honestly, I read the Epstein files only because I was interested in the Russian trace. Epstein tried to find a way to Putin. He kept trying to contact Putin through different people. For some reason, he really needed Putin. As far as I understand, he did not manage to contact Putin, but some Russian people were in his sphere of interest. I don't understand... He was obviously a smart person. He was an immoral person, a completely criminal type. A person extremely spoiled. A classic Rastignac who was breaking through from rags to riches, and for the sake of getting out of poverty, he was ready for absolutely anything. The New York Times published a detailed essay on how he made his first money: it was endless deception. He was always using someone and deceiving someone. He got away with it. Olya, you were a business journalist, to what extent, in your opinion, was this widespread in Russia?
Olga Romanova: I read about how back in 1955 in Moscow a brothel was uncovered where famous cultural figures and officials corrupted young girls. This brothel cost the Minister of Culture his position, at that time there was a certain Georgy Alexandrov, who 'did not ensure the leadership' of the Ministry of Culture. This was written about in Izvestia on March 22, 1955. The scandal went down in history as the 'gladiators' case'. Such an unusual name appeared thanks to the phrase of one of the debauchees: 'So I'm nothing, I just stroked'.
Evgenia Albats: It is known that at various Komsomol parties this was somehow considered normal. The Soviet government prohibited unmarried people from living in the same hotel room or traveling together to a holiday home, but at the same time, this happened almost openly in many propaganda organizations, etc.
Olga Romanova: This was, in general, everywhere. And how many professors have we seen seducing students... But this, unfortunately, is not so much a Soviet phenomenon, not so much a Russian one.
Evgenia Albats: Without a doubt. And you are absolutely right that this is domination, that this is such a variant of using one's power. Bozhena, and when the 'vegetarian' time ended and an authoritarian regime was established in Russia, when with the arrival of people in uniform to power, the cult of strength reigned (all this Putin's judo, sambo, topless, etc.), how did this affect the attitude towards women? On the use of male power over women.
Girls want to settle well, and the KGB officers pay well for this because the money of the KGB officers is 'resolving', that is, easy. Easy money is very pleasant to spend on women
Bozhena Rynska: Somewhere until 2004–2005, the KGB officers did not have such easy and light money. They simply could not afford to buy expensive women. Then the money appeared, and they began to buy women more and more expensive. But I would not say that the attitude towards women became less utilitarian. No, it is still very utilitarian in Russia. Women in Russia have fewer opportunities than in America, so beautiful women use their beauty to secure their future. It's all very simple. 'In the world there is a king, this king is merciless, hunger is his name'. And a low standard of living is his name. Girls want to settle well, and the KGB officers pay well for this because the money of the KGB officers is non-production money, non-contributing, they produce nothing. Their money is 'resolving', that is, easy. Easy money is very pleasant to spend on women. When you earn money very hard, you still think about whether to buy her this or that. And when they don't run out in your drawer, why not spend them on a girl?
Love for Money
Evgenia Albats: In connection with the files and the Epstein story, the issue of prostitution is now being discussed a lot. In different countries, it is treated differently. Germany — a Protestant country. There, prostitution is allowed. Switzerland, the Netherlands — also Protestant countries. Prostitution is allowed. Greece — mainly an Orthodox country. Prostitution is allowed and legalized. In New Zealand, it is also completely allowed. And, for example, in Sweden, it was completely allowed until 1999, and in 1999 a law was adopted, which was also adopted in Norway and Iceland, which punishes those who buy sex. How do you feel about this issue?
Bozhena Rynska: I have a great attitude towards prostitution. It is very beneficial for me. Because a man who can buy sex without a relationship will never deceive me and pretend that he needs a relationship when he just needs quick sex. He will not groom my daughter, will not hit on her when she grows up. He will honestly go and buy. Therefore, I am for full permission. It is beneficial for me.
Olga Romanova: Here we do not agree. I am against the legalization of prostitution if only because women do not become prostitutes from a good life. Why should we think about men and their needs? We need to think about women. Women who find themselves in a bad situation are forced to go to the panel. I want to protect women, and let the men manage somehow.
Bozhena Rynska: They will not go to the panel because it will be prohibited? There will be the same prostitution, but hidden. It will still be because men have a demand for it. Prostitution is fought only by education, its accessibility, and raising the standard of living. When girls from the lower classes have the opportunity to receive free education, when after-school clubs and extended day programs are free in Europe, then it will disappear. When there are simply other living conditions.
Olga Romanova: Well yes, I am for other living conditions. Of course, we need to fight for other living conditions for women.
Evgenia Albats: And what are the conditions in Europe? In Germany, prostitution is legalized. It is legalized because it primarily allows ensuring medical protection both for consumers of paid sex and for those who provide these services. It requires constant medical check-ups, etc. That is, there is supervision over this. Secondly, there are unions of sex workers who protect their rights in this way. Where it is prohibited, no one protects any rights.
Olga Romanova: Due to my activities, from time to time I communicate with people who, as wards, visit the German AIDS foundation. There are a lot of brochures there. And when I first encountered this, I realized that before working with wards, I need to learn some things. For example, the word 'prostitution', the word 'prostitute' in relation to these people is prohibited. 'Sex workers' — yes, of both sexes. I take a brochure, read how to have sex with 'sex workers' correctly, and realize that after studying the instructions, I don't want to do it at all. Because you must wear a latex mask on your face, no live contact. If you don't have a latex mask on hand, cut it out of a plastic bag. No unprotected sex. This is all very detailed and in pictures. Brochures in Russian, German, English, Arabic, and I see that there are few in Russian. I ask why? Because they are taken more? He says no, because there are fewer. He says, you understand that you are asking an incorrect question? What nationality is more in sex workers? I say, but nevertheless, specialists with what language do you need more for work? Strangely enough, with Arabic.
Evgenia Albats: And what does this mean?
Olga Romanova: In the language where, it would seem, it is impossible. And again, sex workers — these are men and women. We are talking mainly about women, but these are men and women, equally suffering from the fact that they, in general, have no other way. Unfortunately...
Evgenia Albats: And this is in the social state that Germany is?
Olga Romanova: Well, it is not an ideal state. It is very social. Social services — this is a profession. Sexual services — this is a profession. My body — my business, I provide services as I can do it, I can't do anything else.
Should the state tell a woman how to manage her body? This is done by a totalitarian state
Evgenia Albats: And do you think it's better for the state to tell a woman how to earn money? Don't you think this is patronage?
Olga Romanova: No, I think the state should ensure the same rights for women as for men, and if a woman has problems, solve these women's problems. So far, salaries are different for men and women. Still.
Evgenia Albats: Agreed. Different still. A woman is significantly more deprived of rights than a man. But we are not talking about this now. According to your logic, the state should tell a woman how she should manage her body. Well, this is done by a totalitarian state, of course. But why should the state allow or not allow how a person manages their body?
Olga Romanova: I didn't say a word about the state. I am engaged in human rights protection. I don't believe in the state at all, in any. I am talking about the attitude of society.
Evgenia Albats: Society can influence and must influence the state. Society elects its representatives. But laws — this is one of the functions of the state. From my point of view, all the state should do is provide public goods. What cannot be divided. Normal air, normal ecology, and protection both within the country and from an external enemy.
Bozhena Rynska: Courts and police.
Evgenia Albats: As soon as it gets into something else, it always ends with a dictatorship.
Bozhena Rynska: I really don't like it when the state gets into citizens' beds.
Olga Romanova: It seems to me we are talking about different things. I didn't call for getting into citizens' beds. I don't like prostitution.
Bozhena Rynska: Listen, no one likes it. I also really don't like it. This is a social phenomenon that is treated not by prohibitions, but only by the availability of free education and the availability of social elevators for children in disadvantaged families. And elite prostitution, that is, expensive, when very beautiful women become kept women, — it will always be, and no availability of education will redeem or cure it. Because for a very beautiful woman, it will always be more profitable to find herself an oilman or a KGB officer.
Olga Romanova: Quietly condemning, without going out with a poster, that I don't like it, — it ends with Aliya Galitskaya in prison.
Bozhena Rynska: For some, it ends, for some, it doesn't. I know thousands of sex stories. This one ended badly. But sometimes it doesn't end badly. Sometimes you manage to bite off a big piece and jump off. Elite, expensive prostitution has always been, it will not go anywhere. And cheap, when women are drawn into it, is treated by raising the standard of living and the possibility of education. And, by the way, free clubs, so that children from disadvantaged families have a good extended day, where there will be good clubs, and the opportunity to acquire some craft by the time of graduation.
Evgenia Albats: On NTV (this was already after the old NTV, but in the period when NTV was still more or less) they showed a big report about male escorts. About women, often already of age, who hired men with whom they appeared in society, went to the theater, went on vacation together, sometimes had sex, but mainly it was an escort. Do we pity male prostitutes as much as female prostitutes, Olga?
Olga Romanova: It's not that I pity female prostitutes or male prostitutes. No, I am generally a rather ruthless person. I just believe that each person should be provided with conditions to engage in the work they would like to do. Could get an education. If they want to trade their body, let them trade, for God's sake, but opportunities should be provided to live somehow differently. And if you want to have sex, you can do it optionally.
Union of Rapists
Evgenia Albats: Last question. In the USA, prostitution is prohibited in 49 states. And yet Epstein, a person with a completely disgusting psyche, was accepted in high American society. And so he existed for several decades. Your explanation — how could this be? After all, he was obviously protected.
There is mutual responsibility, a very strong, very highly organized union of pedophiles. Therefore, we must not take our eyes off the children
Bozhena Rynska: Of course, one hand washes the other, because all lovers of forbidden sex, all pedophiles — this is a very highly organized community. In Australia, there was such a community of pedophiles, it was called 'the family'. Only they also killed boys. And they had their own prosecutor, their own judge, their own surgeon, their own lawyers, their own doctor who prescribed sleeping pills with which they drugged the victims. It was a highly organized criminal community. And there were dozens of dead boys, and something could be done about it only when they became impudent and in broad daylight kidnapped and killed a stunningly beautiful teenager from a bus stop, who was the son of a very famous TV presenter. And only then did the case move from a dead point. Moreover, for many years the police suspected who was at the head of this 'family'. But no matter how many times the police asked for a warrant to search his house, they did not get it. The police were refused this warrant because the 'family' had their own person in the prosecutor's office. These are very highly organized communities. You know that there is a suspect in the high-profile case of the abduction of little Madeleine McCann in Portugal. This is Christian Bruckner, a German pedophile. But so far they can't charge him with anything. He was released because they can't charge him with anything. These are very highly organized criminals. And there are many of them. Therefore, we must keep an eye on the children.
Olga Romanova: Here, of course, there is mutual responsibility, a very strong, I would say, union of rapists, union of dominants.
Bozhena Rynska: Very strong and very highly organized. Therefore, we must not take our eyes off the children. This is what we can really do.
Evgenia Albats: And this should be the business of parents first of all.
Bozhena Rynska: First of all, the business of parents. I will not file a lawsuit against the state later, you understand? This is primarily our business...
Video Version
* Evgenia Albats, Olga Romanova are declared 'foreign agents' in the Russian Federation.
Photo: zekovnet.com / ru.wikipedia.org.